I will never understand the borderline conspiracy theory that no one lives in these places. Business owners aren't in the business of paying money for empty units.
Personally I love seeing them. They are very useful for infill in neighborhoods I walk through and building apartments above shops is something we used to do all the time. This looks like a modern version of making places feel more connected.
I live in Madison, Wisconsin, which no doubt has some similar characteristics to your slice of Virginia ... a lot of upwardly mobile young people come to the Madison opportunity for the economic opportunity and living amenities. We have state government, city government, a big university, plus two small colleges, two very large and fast-growing tech companies with a national signature, and a shit-ton of small, local biotech and similar companies. Plus Madison is gorgeous and there's a decent amount going on (not like Chicago of course, but we have a little bit of culture.) All of this supports in-migration of a ton of young people.
Some of the youngsters moving in have kids or dogs and so they prefer to buy houses ... sometimes in my neighborhood of 1960's houses. But most of them are filling up the insane number of new 5-over-1s. These buildings are going up, en masse, in places that make no danged sense to long-time Madison inhabitants, including far, far outlying Madison and the suburbs. But there's nowhere else to put them, without knocking down other stuff.
Now don't get me wrong, we're knocking down old stuff too, but WOW does knocking down even the crappiest old stuff run into neighborhood complaints. They're redeveloping the site of a second-run movie theater right now. Nobody ever went to that place anymore, and it was an ugly little squat brick thing, but from the level of complaints, you'd think we were murdering Bucky Badger himself. Of course, the building replacing it is the same danged thing as you're building in Virginia. Here's a link.
One new thing that they are doing in some parts of Madison, and even in Fitchburg, which is an inner-ring suburb, is new single-family housing on extremely small lots. We're talking lots as small as 2,800 square feet, though most are larger than that. Here's a google maps street view showing the development of the Fitchburg property.
This type of construction isn't something that the market ever produced before, as far as I know. Even in the old Madison neighborhoods, basically all the lots are at least 5,000 SF, and the suburban standard is 10,000 -15,000 SF. Of course, these tiny-lot houses are provoking local bemusement as well. "Why would anyone want to live like that ... there??" Well, it's working. These buildings sell as fast as the builders can put them up.
Anyway, you might want to look around for some of these new tiny-lot neighborhoods out on the coast.
Yep, most new hotels in cities are made in the 5 over 1 form as well, it's inexpensive and creates a large number of units for the cost per unit and per sq ft, we might permit amd discover a more efficient form in the future, but this is what's working today
And the concerns for tearing things down to build new things will be there, the complaint is really about change and new things rather than the removal of the old thing
There's definitely starting to be pro-development ideology in Madison, yes. Here's a short local news article about one YIMBY group, which was started by a guy who looks to me (an old man) like he's about 12 years old ... but good for him the children are our future.
Johnny Sanphillippo wrote about the 5 over 1 a few years back in his blog, and drew a comparison to the soviet khrushchyovka, a highly standardized mass produced apartment building, his thesis is that there is convergent factors that lead to these two building types (zoning aside) due to the balance between cost and number of units
The rent charges for these closet sized apartments are the same as a home mortgage. Builders know that many young adults are burdened with college debt and may not qualify for a home loan. Now that interest rates are over 7%, it has become more prohibitive to enter the housing market. In addition, many are not marrying and are not having children, so they reason they don't need more space as a family would prefer.
I live in Salt Lake City, and it has grown significantly in recent years. The apartments building construction you mention has sprung up especially in the past couple of years and it is everywhere, both residential and commercial areas. So, the city is growing, apartment construction is way up, but schools are being closed! The people moving in are not having children. This is a cultural change that builders are very aware is increasing.
Young adults are not accruing wealth through home ownership, as has been the most common way of wealth gain in this country, and they will age without children. I see this as pessimistic for our future.
See, people say that, as if apartment buildings didn't exist before Klaus Schwab made an ad. Plenty of people will get married and have kids, but they'll do it as 28 or 30 or 32. Where *are* they supposed to live in between? If the answer isn't living with their parents or "just get married," then I don't see what it can be other than something like what we're doing. So many things are different now, maybe this isn't ideal but it works for a lot of people, I think.
I am not knocking apartments, not at all. I lived in many in my life.
I am concerned that choices are being limited by many things. College debt that is protected and can never be erased by declaring bankruptcy, a real scam on young people, and a growing cultural mentality that is convincing many youth that having children is immoral because of so called climate change, another huge scam.
As of today, the median price of a house is $410,000 dollars and banks are now loaning much less than in the recent past. My point is that young adults are being put at an economic disadvantage by paying the same for an apartment as they would for a home they would own, and on top of that, they will not have the comfort and joy that having children can bring.
I agree with you mostly - I've just never seen someone quote "you will own nothing and be happy" without knocking apartments. Student debt is a real problem and home prices are too. But that's why I welcome these buildings. Because right now potential homeowners are competing for houses with people who, given the option, would rent one of these for some number of years. I'm not against homeownership at all but it makes less sense when you're single. I think opening up good housing options for single people will make it easier for them to work and save and get married down the road.
I agree co-ops appear to be a great way to preserve affordability, need to get more established and make it easier to build them and set them up in that manner, they dominate as affordable units in NYC
Thanks for the great post! I've heard of Five Over Ones, but never really knew much about them. I don't think we have any at all here on Hawaii island
Given the enormous cost of housing (either 49th or 50th worst in the country), these kinds of buildings would bring huge relief to folks here. Many employers complain about the difficulty in finding workers, and even needing to recruit from the mainland. But there are so many folks who can't afford to live here, and many folks who leave after graduation
I live in suburban Dallas where these 5 over 1’s seem to multiply like rabbits. I was helping out on a city council campaign a couple of years ago, and these buildings were a hot campaign topic. Along the lines of what you mention…we have enough, no way “they” can fill all these units, the traffic, the schools et.Al. One of the things I did as campaign work was spend an afternoon calling the management offices of these complexes to find out what their occupancy rates were. Every single one of them was at 95% or more, several had waiting lists (particularly for 2 bed units, which local ordinance limits to no more than 35% of total units for each project). People are definitely living in them! Who? Young professionals who can’t even begin to fathom affording our average home price that is well north of $500,000. Empty nesters who are tired of maintaining (or can no longer afford the taxes and insurance) that half million dollar house, but still want to be close to grandkids. People who have been relocated here by an employer but can’t find a house to buy because our inventory is so far below demand. Single parents and young families wanting access to good schools. They definitely serve a purpose. For the record, my candidate who recognized the value this development added to the city lost. The one who promised to never allow another one to get built won. I will say he hasn’t been very successful with that campaign promise.
I will never understand the borderline conspiracy theory that no one lives in these places. Business owners aren't in the business of paying money for empty units.
Personally I love seeing them. They are very useful for infill in neighborhoods I walk through and building apartments above shops is something we used to do all the time. This looks like a modern version of making places feel more connected.
People who don't want to allow any new housing will try and justify even when reality runs out
Hard for the average person to understand systemic issues as well, easy to blame symptoms and not root causes
Great piece!
I live in Madison, Wisconsin, which no doubt has some similar characteristics to your slice of Virginia ... a lot of upwardly mobile young people come to the Madison opportunity for the economic opportunity and living amenities. We have state government, city government, a big university, plus two small colleges, two very large and fast-growing tech companies with a national signature, and a shit-ton of small, local biotech and similar companies. Plus Madison is gorgeous and there's a decent amount going on (not like Chicago of course, but we have a little bit of culture.) All of this supports in-migration of a ton of young people.
Some of the youngsters moving in have kids or dogs and so they prefer to buy houses ... sometimes in my neighborhood of 1960's houses. But most of them are filling up the insane number of new 5-over-1s. These buildings are going up, en masse, in places that make no danged sense to long-time Madison inhabitants, including far, far outlying Madison and the suburbs. But there's nowhere else to put them, without knocking down other stuff.
Now don't get me wrong, we're knocking down old stuff too, but WOW does knocking down even the crappiest old stuff run into neighborhood complaints. They're redeveloping the site of a second-run movie theater right now. Nobody ever went to that place anymore, and it was an ugly little squat brick thing, but from the level of complaints, you'd think we were murdering Bucky Badger himself. Of course, the building replacing it is the same danged thing as you're building in Virginia. Here's a link.
https://captimes.com/news/community/despite-protest-song-city-advances-apartments-at-former-market-square-theater/article_8e60820a-6a76-535d-8d74-df08b5f8fa36.html
One new thing that they are doing in some parts of Madison, and even in Fitchburg, which is an inner-ring suburb, is new single-family housing on extremely small lots. We're talking lots as small as 2,800 square feet, though most are larger than that. Here's a google maps street view showing the development of the Fitchburg property.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0089617,-89.374248,3a,75y,127.94h,88.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6L-GalJMQRugREkeJsLe4g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This type of construction isn't something that the market ever produced before, as far as I know. Even in the old Madison neighborhoods, basically all the lots are at least 5,000 SF, and the suburban standard is 10,000 -15,000 SF. Of course, these tiny-lot houses are provoking local bemusement as well. "Why would anyone want to live like that ... there??" Well, it's working. These buildings sell as fast as the builders can put them up.
Anyway, you might want to look around for some of these new tiny-lot neighborhoods out on the coast.
Yep, most new hotels in cities are made in the 5 over 1 form as well, it's inexpensive and creates a large number of units for the cost per unit and per sq ft, we might permit amd discover a more efficient form in the future, but this is what's working today
And the concerns for tearing things down to build new things will be there, the complaint is really about change and new things rather than the removal of the old thing
Are there any yimby orgs in Madison?
There's definitely starting to be pro-development ideology in Madison, yes. Here's a short local news article about one YIMBY group, which was started by a guy who looks to me (an old man) like he's about 12 years old ... but good for him the children are our future.
https://captimes.com/news/government/madison-yimby-leader-doesn-t-like-calling-others-nimbys/article_32aeaba1-d7e8-5875-a464-bd4b3cde7f26.html
Johnny Sanphillippo wrote about the 5 over 1 a few years back in his blog, and drew a comparison to the soviet khrushchyovka, a highly standardized mass produced apartment building, his thesis is that there is convergent factors that lead to these two building types (zoning aside) due to the balance between cost and number of units
https://granolashotgun.wordpress.com/2020/01/14/%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%85%D1%80%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0/
The rent charges for these closet sized apartments are the same as a home mortgage. Builders know that many young adults are burdened with college debt and may not qualify for a home loan. Now that interest rates are over 7%, it has become more prohibitive to enter the housing market. In addition, many are not marrying and are not having children, so they reason they don't need more space as a family would prefer.
I live in Salt Lake City, and it has grown significantly in recent years. The apartments building construction you mention has sprung up especially in the past couple of years and it is everywhere, both residential and commercial areas. So, the city is growing, apartment construction is way up, but schools are being closed! The people moving in are not having children. This is a cultural change that builders are very aware is increasing.
Young adults are not accruing wealth through home ownership, as has been the most common way of wealth gain in this country, and they will age without children. I see this as pessimistic for our future.
You will own nothing and be happy.
See, people say that, as if apartment buildings didn't exist before Klaus Schwab made an ad. Plenty of people will get married and have kids, but they'll do it as 28 or 30 or 32. Where *are* they supposed to live in between? If the answer isn't living with their parents or "just get married," then I don't see what it can be other than something like what we're doing. So many things are different now, maybe this isn't ideal but it works for a lot of people, I think.
I am not knocking apartments, not at all. I lived in many in my life.
I am concerned that choices are being limited by many things. College debt that is protected and can never be erased by declaring bankruptcy, a real scam on young people, and a growing cultural mentality that is convincing many youth that having children is immoral because of so called climate change, another huge scam.
As of today, the median price of a house is $410,000 dollars and banks are now loaning much less than in the recent past. My point is that young adults are being put at an economic disadvantage by paying the same for an apartment as they would for a home they would own, and on top of that, they will not have the comfort and joy that having children can bring.
I agree with you mostly - I've just never seen someone quote "you will own nothing and be happy" without knocking apartments. Student debt is a real problem and home prices are too. But that's why I welcome these buildings. Because right now potential homeowners are competing for houses with people who, given the option, would rent one of these for some number of years. I'm not against homeownership at all but it makes less sense when you're single. I think opening up good housing options for single people will make it easier for them to work and save and get married down the road.
Let's solve student debt by forgiving student debt and making college free to attend, not by banning apartments
It’s not especially common here, but you can sell off apartments one by one instead of renting them out
I agree co-ops appear to be a great way to preserve affordability, need to get more established and make it easier to build them and set them up in that manner, they dominate as affordable units in NYC
https://millennialdream.substack.com/p/exploring-tenancy-in-common
https://millennialdream.substack.com/p/the-100-most-walkaffordable-us-neighborhoods
Thanks for the great post! I've heard of Five Over Ones, but never really knew much about them. I don't think we have any at all here on Hawaii island
Given the enormous cost of housing (either 49th or 50th worst in the country), these kinds of buildings would bring huge relief to folks here. Many employers complain about the difficulty in finding workers, and even needing to recruit from the mainland. But there are so many folks who can't afford to live here, and many folks who leave after graduation
I live in suburban Dallas where these 5 over 1’s seem to multiply like rabbits. I was helping out on a city council campaign a couple of years ago, and these buildings were a hot campaign topic. Along the lines of what you mention…we have enough, no way “they” can fill all these units, the traffic, the schools et.Al. One of the things I did as campaign work was spend an afternoon calling the management offices of these complexes to find out what their occupancy rates were. Every single one of them was at 95% or more, several had waiting lists (particularly for 2 bed units, which local ordinance limits to no more than 35% of total units for each project). People are definitely living in them! Who? Young professionals who can’t even begin to fathom affording our average home price that is well north of $500,000. Empty nesters who are tired of maintaining (or can no longer afford the taxes and insurance) that half million dollar house, but still want to be close to grandkids. People who have been relocated here by an employer but can’t find a house to buy because our inventory is so far below demand. Single parents and young families wanting access to good schools. They definitely serve a purpose. For the record, my candidate who recognized the value this development added to the city lost. The one who promised to never allow another one to get built won. I will say he hasn’t been very successful with that campaign promise.